Be sure when you offshore

13Oct

763

Terry Bland, Managing Director of GodelTech has written an article detailing that if done properly offshoring can be a painless and rewarding experience.

Offshoring a development project is now an accepted method of obtaining a high-quality product. Despite this many organisations are still cautious about considering such an approach but Terry explains that working with the right partner can result in a better job overall.

You can read Terry’s article here.

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The Godel POD: Episode 1 – Keeping Connectivity in a Hybrid World with Comply Advantage
This series is about "Keeping Connectivity in a Hybrid World". In the first episode of The Godel POD, we are joined by Dan McNeil, Director of Engineering at Comply Advantage. Sarah Foster: Hi Dan, please introduce yourself. Dan McNeil: I'm Dan McNeil. I'm one of the Directors of Engineering at Comply Advantage and I look after about half of our development team. Sarah Foster: So obviously, we are looking at keeping connectivity within a hybrid world, and high performing teams in the hybrid world. So, for Comply Advantage and yourself, what does it return to work look like for you? Dan McNeil: A return to work is something that actually at the time of recording we've actually started. We've started opening up our locations around the world as government regulations change. We’re saying that people can come in if they have a need to come in but we're still encouraging people not to cram on public transport if they don't need to. We're saying if you have something you need to be in the office for, or you have somebody who you want to have a conversation with that you can't have remotely, that might be difficult conversations or meeting new starters - we are opening the office up to that kind of thing. I don't think we will go back to an environment where we have a desk for everybody. It will be more of a world where we have office space available in all of our locations so that people can go in and it's not just if they want to meet other people. For me personally, I found myself much more relaxed going into the office and I was much less stressed about things, just grabbing a coffee and walking down the street to the office. When I'm in London, I'm fortunate enough to be able to walk to the office so that's quite nice and a safe way to get to work. The other thing that I can see happening, and actually some teams have started doing this, is I can see teams getting together when they want to as a team. So, if there's a new project coming up, the team might get together to kick off that project. The weather hasn't been great the past few days but when it's been sunny, we've had teams grabbing a takeaway, sitting on the grass at a distance apart in the park, and talking about how they're going to tackle a project in the park. I think a lot more of that kind of stuff will start happening. There are some people who want to go into the office every day and that's also fine. Sarah Foster: Do you find with having this hybrid approach, do you think there will be scale down in offices? Dan McNeil: Absolutely and we're not unique in taking this approach. You know, we've seen the tech giants putting off the decision and saying, right we'll make a decision in September, we're expecting everybody back in September, and I think Google have recently changed their mind on that. We have to remain competitive in the marketplace. We couldn't hire developers if we said, you have to be at a desk, five days a week, when other companies are saying no. Imagine if we said, we're hiring developers but you must be at your desk nine to five and take an hour for lunch and you don't have flexible hours around that, that would sound so outdated - and I think it's already starting to sound outdated to say. I’ve heard people say, well it's remote during the pandemic but once things return to normal, you'll be back in the office, five days a week. Most people skip over that. I think pure economics means that if you if you say that 20 or 30% of your working population will be in the office every day, why would you pay for 100% office space? Especially in somewhere like Central London, saving 70% of your desk space means saving 70% of your office budget can be millions of pounds a year. On the flip side of that, what would you do when there are more heads, coming to the office with desk space of eight? What we're doing actually is, we are going for an experimental phase at the moment. I think you can never rule it out completely. I think you have to have some contingency and our contingency is that we currently have a private area within a co working space, and people who are members of the co working space have access to the communal areas as well so if we had overflow. We also have access to things like meeting rooms and other contingent space we can book. But for me I think it's about experimentation, it's about rolling with this, having a good guess, like we've done now, then running with it and seeing how this pans out. We're also asking people to say in advance when they come in, realistically, if somebody turns up at the office door and hasn't booked, we're not going to have a bouncer standing there saying your name is not down you're not coming in. We’re generally saying if you know when you're coming into the office, just put your name down on the list. We're finding people are doing that, and we haven't yet run into a problem, we've only opened the office space backup formally in the past week or so and there's more people coming in, but people tend to be coming in in groups. They tend to be coming in as a team and I can imagine they won't necessarily take desks; they might get a meeting room and go around a whiteboard or go around a screen to look at something. Unfortunately, the space we have for meeting rooms isn’t big enough to maintain social distancing with a lot of people so it's about having the contingency to deal with it tactically but monitoring the situation strategically. If you're constantly having to deal with it tactically, maybe you need a little bit more space. On the flip side, if constantly half of your desks are empty, you can probably turn that space into a breakout area or put sofas in or something. Sarah Foster: Yeah, totally agree. And how do you feel that kind of model of hybrid aspects will see the kind of everyday work conversation, such as the watercooler diversity conversations? Dan McNeil: We use Slack and people do tend to have many more casual Slack channels on the go, it used to be in the office you'd send somebody a slack when you wanted something, or they wanted something. Now it's a lot less transactional - it might just be Hello, how you are doing, I haven’t spoken to you in a week. What I found with going into the office as well is you don't always meet the same people every day in the office. I'm in the office generally Wednesdays and Thursdays and every week I've been in the office Wednesday and Thursday for the last four weeks, there's been a different set of people. Last week, for instance, I went in to meet a new team member who hasn't started yet, but to whom we've made an offer. We went and had lunch outside with him and I just randomly bumped into somebody from our customer success team who had not seen in a year because he happened to be in the office. I think that they will be less frequent but when they do happen, they tend to be longer conversations because if you've not seen somebody for months, you'll tend to have a more meaningful interaction than if you saw them yesterday you just kind of nod and walk past. I think we have to keep conscious of including people who aren't in the office because now that we're moving to this hybrid model. We're actually starting to employ some people who aren't based in London at all. Initially when we thought when we won't be in the office every day, some people were coming in as candidates who are a little bit further afield where commutes are maybe too long to do every day, but you could do it once a week. We're actually finding ourselves making offers to candidates who are in Sheffield or Edinburgh because it really doesn't matter. I think it's important to ensure that if the team get into an informal discussion, they think about the people that aren't in the office. But frankly, that was always true. If I bump into somebody from another team in the kitchen, I'm unlikely to come to a conclusion or change strategy or change the team’s structure with I'm likely to just have an idea. And then the idea goes back into more processing channels to get follow through, so I think the same thing will happen. We need to be mindful not to exclude people because they’re remote, but we still take things to the same formal channels to make a decision or to change something. Sarah Foster: Having touched on that excluded aspect, how would you, or how would Comply Advantage suggest that we stop biases in this hybrid world to those that aren't obviously central London like yourself, or in the office all the time? Dan McNeil: I think the thing that helps feel like is in our favour is that I don't think many people will be in the office all the time, I think they will be the minority. What we've seen, in the before times, as I call them. Now our office is back open, people have been saying are you in the office today? As if home is the norm. and in the office is the exception. If we do see 20% of the population in the office that will remain, and the people who are in the office every day will be analogous to the people who previously were out of the office every day and work from home every day. For me, I'm not particularly concerned about people getting left out day to day. I would say if a team gets together once a quarter to kick off the quarter, or we can afford the train fare and the hotel for people who are remote to come to London. Not everyone can join because now you will have people who have family reasons or other life reasons to not travel, but again that's going to be pretty rare. So far, I've seen some new teams in my organisation formed during lockdown, where the members of the teams have literally never met each other, and they're doing some great work. So, it is possible to create these new teams and build the new teams. I must say I'm also seeing working relationships sometimes take a little bit longer to establish. We've had quite a few new people in leadership positions that combined, including myself. We found that myself and other people, that we're not establishing the trust and the working relationship that you have to establish with everybody - it's not happening as quickly. I had a conversation with somebody in the office a couple of weeks ago, and we'd seen each other a bit during lockdown you in those weird periods where you're allowed to meet up for coffee and I think within an hour of sitting in a communal space with a coffee we covered about three months of ground in terms of stuff that, in terms of building relationship and sharing ideas, and it felt so much more open. Sarah Foster: So, with that kind of aspect, how would you ensure that company values and ethos remain the same throughout that kind of geographical spread of everyone working remotely, and within the hybrid world? Dan McNeil: So I think that the company values we have, we do actually hold very true. Things such a being collaborative, being agile, being tenacious, being curious, being a humble being human. You can still do all those things on a video call, you can still have a personality on a video call, you can still have a bit of levity when appropriate, you can still even do the hard conversations, remotely. I think that because we all live and breathe what we believe as a company, that comes through in the remote communication as well. You can't maintain transparency with the team by crowding everybody into a big meeting room and standing at the front and saying look, I've got some news to share. But you can create transparency by getting everybody on a zoom call and having everybody's cameras on. There's little things that I feel is a much more open conversation when the other person has a camera on, and that's a rule we instigated quite soon to comply, which is unless there's a good reason not to have your camera on during all video calls, because otherwise I can't be doing anything. You know I could be staring out the window, I could be walking around my house, I could be cooking dinner. I think it shows that the other person has your attention in a way that if you're face to face with somebody. If you were staring down at your phone playing Candy Crush, that will be rude, but you could do that on a video call without somebody knowing, it doesn't make it any less rude. Sarah Foster: Yeah, I totally agree and I think obviously having that camera on aspect adds that personality again. So apart from having the cameras on, how else would you ensure that you have that feeling of being connected? Dan McNeil: I think over communication is key. You can't rely on the fact that people will just talk to each other. So, I tend to do the team meetings I was having before the pandemic and I'm still having a full team meeting once a month. I'm still sharing the slides, I'm still having a team Slack channel for everybody on the team. Every time I say something important, I will say it in that channel, so that everybody knows. I think it's also important when new people join us because they do you know this is a business, people have both joined and left during the pandemic. Normally, you might send a round robin email saying he or she has decided to leave us to go elsewhere. And it's not always just a case of a video call because a five-minute video call to say somebody is leaving can be a bit weird. I think the other thing for me is I always acknowledge how strange the situation is. I think a year in we've got used to it, I don't think anything when I've seen people wearing face masks in Sainsbury's now, whereas a year ago I would have thought what's going on there. I think we need to retain the context that this is still weird. In the context of our entire lives, it's been a very weird year. In the context of the past year ‘today’ is not particularly weird, but the context of our lives, it is. So I say to people, look, this feels a bit weird doing this over video, I'd like to do this face to face, but I still say that after a year, because we all know we don't really have a choice, but just to say look, I'm not delivering this news over video because I can't face you, or because I'm hiding something, I'm delivering this over video because that's all I'm allowed to do. We’ve ran a lot of company events where we've continued with our calls and education sessions. We get external speakers or internal speakers to do a talk for an hour. I'm very involved with setting up the LGBTQ plus ones, we still continue those through the time when we're all at home, and yes it's a bit weird, if you have somebody sitting in the living room going, Hello, today I'm going to talk to you about trans inclusion, you're like, yes, that's something we would normally expect to see in speaking space where we'd all be together. But actually, I think there's things we can take from this pandemic that we can keep because not everybody can get to that space, especially when we're talking about inclusion. Not everybody is able to travel to the space where an event is happening, not everybody is comfortable in the space where an event is happening so actually, by normalising the fact that video is a legitimate way to communicate, we might end up being more inclusive at the end of this pandemic than we were when we went in. Sarah Foster: Yeah, I completely agree, and I think you kind of touched on something about mentioning that at the moment you say, obviously I'd love to do face to face but at the moment I can't. When there is some form of normality, however long that be, hopefully sooner rather than later. But when the social distancing has been eradicated and normality, as we previously knew it, is back, how would you then address, I'd love to have this conversation face to face aspects within that hybrid model? Dan McNeil: I think I would probably do it as face to face as I can, so it would still be online, but for those people who are in the office, I come into the office. If it's something that's known about in advance, I would send an invite saying I'm going to be delivering this in person in meeting room X in the office will be great to see you there so we can meet in person, but if you can't make it, you will be on video as well. I don't want to make the people who can't make it feel lesser in any way, but I want to give the opportunity for people who do value the face-to-face interaction to get that interaction. I think once in the life of the company, this was before I started, the entire company got together for a few days. But that's expensive both in terms of travel, and in terms of time off some of the stuff that's really logistically difficult. So, for a global company, there's always going to be somebody on the end of a video call. We've got so many cross site teams, both squads within the dev team, but also just groups of people working on projects together. Most of the meetings I'm in have at least one person who's not based in the UK. And, yes, international travel will come back Sunday, so I'll get to meet these people one day, but they're not going to be there for every meeting, so actually it doesn't feel that much different. It feels like a lot of this stuff around including people remotely, we should already have been doing anyway. If a pandemic teaches us to capture ourselves and go, we should have been more inclusive in the first place, then great, let's start doing it. I like to engender a feeling on crossline video calls that everybody's going to pop up on the call, but not necessarily from one side or the other. So, somebody from London from Comply Advantage might be in Romania might be in New York. They might pop up on the call from another location and we should normalise that. Sarah Foster: So, with that kind of normalising things, how do you feel the hybrid model will affect with attrition, so touching on picking them feeling prompts, knowing when someone’s unhappy at work? Dan McNeil: That's a difficult question. I think that it's also very difficult to talk about it experientially because the past year has not been a normal year anyway. So, attrition, at the start of the pandemic was really low because everybody just said right, I am not going to change job now, I've got more things to worry about, I just want the salary coming in and I want me and my family to be safe. We've seen the job market really hot up, because people actually like this model of remote working. I've seen in the past couple of months the job market has really got busier than it was before. Now, some of that might be over adjustments for all the people that wanted to move the needle during the first lockdown, so we might be seeing some over adjustment. But I think the same things apply if you treat your team with respect and you give them what they need and you help them to feel empowered, challenged, valued and motivated. I don't think there's any more reason for them to leave in a hybrid world than it is in a non-hybrid world. I think that's going to sound quite harsh but saying that attrition went up in a business because of hybrid working sounds like a bit like an excuse. The people I people genuinely don't want to change jobs if they're happy, they're just happy to carry on doing it. So, if the hybrid working model gives an easier way for people to move because maybe they can apply to jobs in a wider geographical area without having to relocate, then some companies might see more attrition. But frankly, there's people who wanted to leave anyway who couldn't because of logistics keeping them and I don't think anything about the hybrid model will cause people to leave when they otherwise weren't going to, unless some companies don't maintain the hybrid model. I think if a company were to say, all of our developers need to be back in the office Monday and you can work from home with private permission, a couple of weeks in advance, I would get the attrition behind that. Sarah Foster: Okay, so with that, how is trust to be expected for remote workers, or how would staff be managed, for example, new starters? Dan McNeil: I think for me it very much depends how you measure people. If you measure people by how many hours they are sitting at the desk and how many times they go the toilet and do they go outside for cigarette breaks and stuff, they're not going to be able to do that, but frankly good, it will stop people from using those methods to measure people. I think for me. I'm very lucky in that I have a very good group of managers managing the developers, and they still have weekly check ins with people. Coming back to attrition they do still pick up on whether people are happy or unhappy or if there's something on somebody's mind. I think at first it was tougher on video. But as this has become more normalised people are treating this as the way they communicate now. And I can tell if somebody's annoyed on a video call. I mean, maybe not as quickly as I can't see them face to face, but you can still tell if somebody is disinterested, or if somebody looks grumpy, or if somebody is on mute and mouthing things. That's why, extreme example but you can tell, you can still pick up on that stuff. And actually, people will still be in those downloads, people will still be interacting with members of the team. And if you measure people by their contributions to that team. Well, that's still there, if you say no by adding this new staff team, have we seen our productivity improved, have we seen our predictability improved, have we seen our quality improved. That's how we should have been measuring the teams in the first place. And so, if we carry on measuring the teams in this way, it doesn't matter where somebody is, in fact, I find that it actually interested people more. That sounds like a bit of a strange thing to say but people have been much more open about saying, actually, I've got this prepared this afternoon is that okay, so I'll make it up this evening. People have been a lot more open about that kind of stuff when they're at home than when they're in the office to be honest. I'm just finding people are very open about, what we've done over the past year is we have pushed the work life balance on average a bit more towards life. We've given permission for people to say, Yeah, I've got a pop out this afternoon because I've got to pop into the school to see the headmaster about something. Or I've got to pop out because my mother is going for a COVID jab and she's a bit nervous so I'm going to drive it, you know, whatever it is, I think we have just given people the permission to say, going to be offline for now. I think, as you know, I've always believed it, but I think as a community, we've now learned that the world doesn't stop if somebody takes a two-hour lunch break instead of one hour, it really doesn’t. Sarah Foster: So, with that, that kind of leads me quite nicely on to my next question about burnout. Without commuting unwind and downtime, and people kind of taking it out of their own lunch and adding it on to the end of their day, are we at further risk of accelerated burnout? Dan McNeil: It's an interesting question. I have two views on this personally. One is, I've actually found myself, responding to my laptop more a weekend and evening than I did before the pandemic. But I found that process less stressful, because it feels less like I'm committing a big thing by dedicating some of my time at home to going and taking an evening call with somebody in the US or whatever. It’s like, I'll tell my partner, right, I've got to work, or I'll be gone for half an hour. Before I come to bed, I'll go and get an email just reply to that person while the person from the US is online. On the other hand, I don't want that to become normalised. So, I do always, if I send emails that weekend if the to a relatively broader audience I re-schedule send for Monday morning not because I'm hiding the fact that I sent it in a weekend, but I don't want that to become something that's rewarding. I think the key to avoiding burnout now is the same as it ever was, is to watch out for the signs and people, and don't incentivise working long hours, incentivise being productive and having high outputs and being efficient and being smart and bringing good ideas. If I know so many of my teams worked at 60 hours a week last week, they're not going to get praise for it, they're going to get asked why, and what are we going to do to stop them ever needing to do that again. Sarah Foster: Yeah, it's good that you've got that mentality and I think I've seen it myself and I receive emails, sometimes signatures say I work hours to suit myself, please don't feel like you have to reply to email, if they don’t suit your working hours, and that type of understanding. Do you think that's something that may be introduced in a long time in the long haul for a number of companies or do you think that's quite rare to see that? Dan McNeil: I think that’s quite rare, I've actually never seen it, but I like the idea. But I would love if I had a magic wand so that's how we all thought without having to write it down. I think the other thing that I do and I’m unapologetic about this, is that when I'm on holiday from work and I've taken a week off, I’ve uninstalled slack and I stopped taking emails my phone. I try to be responsive, if there's a customer instance that I'm the somebody who can help them, I'm going to help if I can. But the rule I have to people is, you've got my number, you can WhatsApp me if I’m needed. If it's not important enough to WhatsApp, then I'm not going to be dealing with it until I’m back. And it sounds harsh but actually, people do sometimes WhatsApp me but only on occasions and I'm glad they did. I'm like, Okay I can't help with this, or I can just, you know, even if it's just a case where I send them a couple of messages on WhatsApp and go, right try this or I talked to this person doesn't really inconvenience me. But equally, I think if I had slack on my phone the temptation would be I'll just jump on the channel, I'll just respond to this one thing. I've been encouraging people in the team to say, if you're on holiday, don't reply. You know if somebody replies to my slack when they're away, I will say, why have you replied. Quite often, they'll say, hello, because I’m sat with the kids and I was bored and I was just sitting at the PC and I thought I’ll check the channel, or whatever. You know my responses are short, you've got better things to do, read a book, go for walk, take the dog. I think that the other aspect of this is, it depends on people's personal circumstances. One thing we did at Comply during the pandemic, wasn't because of the pandemic, but something we switched to is an unlimited leave policy. And we're finding people not taking much leave to be honest, some people are taking what I describe as a sensible amount of that, they're taking enough that you can write during the year, they're going to take a fair amount of time off which is good. I wonder whether the people are not taking time off because there’s something about the unlimited policy that hasn't yet settled in with them. We need to work on that to make sure they are comfortable taking the lead or is it that if you live in a one bedroom flats on your own and you're not fulfilled with anyone. What are you going to do with the weekend? I mean I know from a personal point of view, I'm here with my partner and we're here together most days because sometimes, especially with things now opening up, sometimes one or both was back in London but we're here together most of the time. But if I were on my own talking to people on Slack and stuff it would be, you know, it will be people to talk to and it's a group of people to be around during the day. Some people love the isolation, some people would love to switch off stare out the window, read books, and not talk to anyone for a week. That's not me, and I'm sure it's not a lot of other people, either. So, I think we need to manage burnout. And we need to encourage people to have downtime. But are not going to force people to take a week of holiday if what they're going to be doing is sitting there on their own feeling lonely. Sarah Foster: So with that, that's sparked question in my head. So, with without that human interaction and face to face aspect, can the fear of failure be supported in that hybrid world to a certain degree, or do you feel like that is something that will be hard to manage? Dan McNeil: You mean as in, do you think people’s fear of failure will be more intense? Sarah Foster: Yes. Dan McNeil: I think that, yes it can be for some people, and I can speak from personal experience here I mean I'm the kind of person who is not very self-assured, it doesn't come across when I'm doing stuff like this I know, but I'm not very self-assured. I don't have somebody who doesn't have that little assuring voice inside the head going, you are okay you are enough, I don't have that. So I rely on that from other people not in any way, but that's kind of how I judge whether I'm doing a good job is through other people's eyes not my own. And that gets tougher when you're not around people because you don't get those cues we've talked about, so I think it's easier to be sitting here on your own thinking, Did I screw that up, am I doing a good job, what does that person think of me, it is certainly easier. So, I think we need to be mindful of opening up over text and video in a way that maybe we hadn't previously. Video was always a slightly weird medium in the past, you would never really have a deep personal conversation over video with a friend, unless you live miles apart or whatever. And I think it's taken us a while to do that, and you find deep personal conversations. Some work conversations, even if it's not delving into somebody's personal life which is frankly none of our business unless they want to share it, but it’s still about how is somebody feeling about their own performance, how are they feeling about their place in the team, how are they feeling about the future, are they feeling motivated, are they feeling demotivated? They are quite personal stuff, and I think all the stuff I've said previously on LinkedIn or whatever, about encouraging vulnerability, we've had to do that again on video - it's tougher to be vulnerable on video, I think, than it is to be vulnerable face to face with somebody. So, yeah, I think it can be worse. I think the other thing that can play into it is, everybody has a background level of upset concern anxiety, whatever you want to call it however it's manifesting our emotional centres are a little bit further at the moment than they were before the pandemic, and I think we’re getting better but we are still, when we're out and about looking for people who aren't wearing masks. Saying I wish it that over your nose, you know, whatever. And if you are somebody who is lacking in self-assurance or prone to fear of failure or imposter syndrome, or whatever it is. I think the fact that there's this other thing going on, might actually stimulate those unhelpful thoughts within yourself anyway. I think this has been said a lot, but I think there's a second pandemic happening at the moment and that pandemic is a mental health problem and work is not immune from people's mental health. If people are feeling anxious or depressed, or whatever else, that has as much of bearing on their ability to work as if they broke the wrist and can only type on handed, you know it will have an impact on their ability to do their job. And I think for me, it's about creating the space for people to be open about that as well. You know, it's creating a space for when we're talking, the pandemic has created to say it's okay to say, really not enjoying this, we know I'm having a bad week and being lonely. Those things are fine to say. And as leaders, we mustn't judge that, as companies, we mustn't judge that and as individuals we mustn’t judge that. Sarah Foster: So, finally to finish off with our conversation today about connectivity within the hybrid working world, has that made you think about anything in which you would like to implement at your team at Comply Advantage, or that you'd like to channel for other companies to do? Dan McNeil: I think one thing I'd like to do within the team is I think I'm talking from experience here so, you know, I think I've got a bit of experience, but on the flip side, I shouldn't presume what people want. So, I'm presuming that most people want face to face interaction. It's very easy as individuals as a human to project how I feel about something onto other people and go, well if I don't like video, you mustn't like video either. So, I think for me, talking about this subject and thinking about it more in depth as I have, during this conversation, and previously. I think I want to open a conversation with the team to go right, we've decided as a company, how we're going to work. How do we want to work as a team, within that, we have the freedom to be logistically, technologically, and to, you know, personally, work as we want? We've got the framework, we know we have these offices we can go into, we know it doesn't have capacity for everybody, we know we have to reserve spaces in the office, before we get away. We know that we've still got to master social distancing. Given all that, how do we want to shape ourselves as a team, what do we want our normal as a team to be? I think the one thing I'll do is use this as a catalyst to go to the team and say, right, the office is open again. How do we want to do this, how do you want me to do is, how do you want me to serve you as the leader, given? I can come into the office to meet you. But I equally don't want us to come into the office and that's not the way we're going to do to meet me. I think I should canvass opinions as well as having my own. Sarah Foster: So, it’s been great to chat with you Dan and it’s been really insightful to find out how you're managing your team at Comply Advantage and what Comply Advantage are doing as a business to tackle this hybrid working world. Is there anything you'd like to leave us on? Dan McNeil: I’d like to end on an optimistic note which is to say, we've delivered some really great stuff, remotely at Comply, we've built some really great teams we've delivered some really great stuff we've been hitting goals, been hiring a lot, still hiring by the way. And it gives me optimism that we might be going into a new world.View article

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